I recommend looking at the Equipment & Gear: Knife Parts article to get an idea of what to look for in general when selecting a knife. We'll also be using the terminology laid out in that article to identify knife parts.
If you don't want to read the whole article then jump down to the Conclusions.
What brands were tested?
Each of the chef's knives tested was selected for a reason.
I started with Henckels and Wüsthof - the two most popular "high-end" chef's knives available in the United States. These are the manufacturers that have been pushed as quality cutlery at most home kitchen supply stores. (The knives tested were the Henckels Pro-S and the Wusthof Classic. Both companies produce lower quality, budget lines that are inferior to their high-end knives. Heckels manufacturers, under the premium branding of Zwilling J.A. Henckels, the Pro-S, Four Star, Five Star, and Twin collections. Wüsthof-Trident makes the Classic, Grand Prix series, Culinar, and Le Cordon Bleu lines as their premium knives.)
I then added the R.H. Forshner / Victorinox chef's knife as a relatively low cost entry. This knife was the Cook's Illustrated Editor's Choice in their knife testing (actually, it's from the same family - I wasn't able to figure out exactly which knife was tested by Cook's Illustrated without a model number).
The Global cook's knife was included because they are the most popular Japanese kitchen knives available to the average American consumer. In the last several years they have made a big impression with their stainless steel handles and imposing presence in stores like Sur La Table, Williams-Sonoma, and, most recently, Bed Bath & Beyond.
The Kershaw Shun is another Japanese manufactured line that has practically leaped onto the stage. Described by Cook's Illustrated as the "Cadillac" of chef's knives and personally endorsed by Alton Brown, I had to include it in the roundup. The Shun was also a personal favorite of mine (as expressed in the Equipment & Gear: Kitchen Knives article).
I then included one more well-known brand - Cutco. Cutco is not sold in stores but is instead marketed in the U.S. through a referral based direct marketing method (similar to the old party system). The Cutco claim is that they are the best selling high-end kitchen knife manufactured in the United States.
The other knives I included are not as well-known, but are well respected: MAC, Tojiro, and Nenox. I attempted to contact several other knife manufacturers (including Kyocera for their ceramic chef's knife) but failed to receive a response (and I had reached my limit on knives I was willing to buy for this test).
Test procedure
All of the knives were tested out-of-the-box because I made the assumption that most readers will not be hand sharpening their knives. (In addition, once a knife has been sharpened, it would be difficult to compare the performance of the knives because of the added factor of the sharpener's skill and equipment.)
I started off with the desire to measure the physical dimensions of the knives: thickness of spine at bolster and at tip and angle of bevel at the cutting edge. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to measure the angle of bevel to any degree of accuracy (most of the knives taper to the edge and the actual bevel is over a very short distance of perhaps a millimeter). I did use calipers to measure the spine thickness at two points on each knife and determined that the thickness of the spine does not affect the cutting performance (it may play a role in other factors to be considered when selecting a knife, like weight). The knives were also weighed.
The rest of the testing was focused on subjective cutting performance. I spent a month thinking about how I would set up an apparatus to make objective measurements, but couldn't come up with a feasible test that did not seem contrived and too abstract to compare to how a knife would actually be used in the kitchen. As such, I settled on making the subjective testing as "accurate" as possible, performing the same cuts over and over again with the knives. First all the knives were subjected to the particular cutting test and roughly ranked against each other. Then knives close together in the ranking order repeated the cutting test (often alternating cuts) until I could determine if one was noticeable superior to the other or they were pretty much equal in performance. Prior to each cutting test, the knives were steeled to realign their edges.
Test 1: Carrot Test
Description: Unpeeled carrots were cut in two different ways. The first method started by positioning the carrot parallel to the counter and driving the heel of the knife into the carrot at a 30° (from horizontal) angle. The blade was driven in (like a wedge) for about 2 mm, enough for the knife to stay in place. The knife was then pulled from heel to tip along that groove. The motion was completed with no conscious downward pressure. The result was examined - a sharp knife would be able to slice cleanly through the carrot, a duller knife might slice through most of the way but end with the carrot snapping off, while a very dull knife would simply slide in the groove. The second test method involved cutting thin (1 mm or less) cross-sectional slices from the carrot. The slicing was accomplished by starting the tip (about an inch from the point) of the knife on the surface of the carrot and pushing the knife forward and down (usually traversing only a couple inches) to cut through. The effort required to cut through as well as the cleanliness of the cut were compared to rank the knives.
Test 2: Potato Test
Description: A potato was first cut in half along its major axis (long side). A potato half was then set down on the cutting board with its cut side down to keep the potato from rolling or moving during the test. Thin slices of potato were cut off by starting the tip on the surface of the potato and pushing the knife forward. This technique was used to perform the majority of the ranking based on effort needed to cut through, cleanliness of cut, and how straight the cut was. In cases where it was difficult to determine if one knife was superior to another with similar performance, a reverse stroke was used as well: the stroke started with the heel of the knife and the knife was pulled back without any additional downward effort.
Test 3: Tomatoes
Description: This is a very popular demonstration (although I'm not sure why - I've only seen extremely dull knives perform badly with tomatoes). Because, in my experience, all knives cut tomatoes reasonably well, I focused on the feel of the knife during the cut. Specifically, I watched for any slipping while cutting and the level of ease with which the knife slid through the tomato. None of the tomatoes were crushed, were mangled, or lost excessive juice during the test. The tomato was first cut in half through its axis of symmetry (through the stem to the tip) and laid down to prevent rolling. The heel of the knife was placed on the skin and the knife was pulled back allowing the weight of the knife to help the blade slide through the tomato.
Test 4: Scallions
Description: The greens of fresh scallions were thinly sliced into circles using both a mincing motion (keeping the point anchored on the cutting board and pushing the heel of the blade down) and a short slicing motion (placing the point on the board and the scallions under the middle of the knife and sliding the knife forward about an inch). Both actions were repeated for several seconds as scallions were fed under the knife with the left hand. Both the feel of the knife and the cleanliness of the chopped scallions (clean cuts or signs of crushing, bruising, or tearing) were taken into account in this test.
The Knives (in alphabetic order)
Cutco 9-1/4" French Chef
Most common price: $104 (available through a Cutco representative)
Weight: 8.30 oz. (236 g)
Spine thickness: 12/128 in. (2.4 mm) @ bolster; 5/128 in. (1.0 mm) @ tip
Henckels 31021-200 Pro-S 8-in. Chef's Knife
Most common price: $90 (amazon.com)
Weight: 9.30 oz. (264 g)
Spine thickness: 8/128 in. (1.6 mm) @ bolster; 5/128 in. (1.0 mm) @ tip
Global G-2 20cm Cook's Knife
Most common price: $86 (amazon.com); $86 (MetroKitchen)
Weight: 5.85 oz. (165 g)
Spine thickness: Not yet measured
MAC MBK-85 MAC Mighty Chef 8.5"
Most common price: $120 (amazon.com); $120 (MAC Knife)
Weight: 7.25 oz. (206 g)
Spine thickness: 13/128 in. (2.6 mm) @ bolster; 4/128 in. (0.8 mm) @ tip
MAC MTH-80 MAC Mighty Chef 8" with dimples
Most common price: $100 (Cutlery and More); $110 (amazon.com)
Weight: 6.45 oz. (183 g)
Spine thickness: 12/128 in. (2.4 mm) @ bolster; 8/128 in. (1.6 mm ) @ tip
Nenox S1 210mm Gyuto
Most common price: $261 (JapaneseChefsKnife.com); $270 (Nenohi)
Weight: 6.30 oz. (178 g)
Spine thickness: Not yet measured
RH Forschner Victorinox 40521 Fibrox 10-in. Chef's Knife
Most common price: $29 (amazon.com)
Weight: 7.85 oz. (223 g)
Spine thickness: 12/128 in. (2.4 mm) @ bolster; 5/128 in. (1.0 mm) @ tip
Shun Classic DMO706 8 in. Chef's Knife
Most common price: $120 (MetroKitchen); $124 (amazon.com)
Weight: 7.50 oz. (212 g)
Spine thickness: 12/128 in. (2.4 mm) @ bolster; 6/128 in. (1.2 mm) @ tip
Tojiro DP F-808 21cm Gyoto Chef's Knife (60 Rockwell)
Most common price: $50 (JapaneseChefsKnife.com), $59 (Korin); $100 (various shops in Japantown, San Francisco, CA)
Weight: 6.30 oz. (179 g)
Spine thickness: 8/128 in. (1.6 mm) @ bolster; 6/128 in. (1.2 mm) @ tip
Tojiro Powdered High Speed F520 21cm Gyoto Pro Chef's Knife (62 Rockwell)
Most common price: $130 (JapaneseChefsKnife.com); $250 (Jorgensen International)
Weight: 6.65 oz. (189 g)
Spine thickness: 8/128 in. (1.6 mm) @ bolster; 5/128 in. (1.0 mm) @ tip
Wusthof 4582 Classic 20 cm. Cook's Knife
Most common price: $95 (amazon.com)
Weight: 8.80 oz. (249 g)
Spine thickness: 17/128 in. (3.4 mm) @ bolster; 5/128 in. (1.0 mm) @ tip
Knife Performance Rankings
I've numerically ranked each knife starting with "1" as the best performing knife. Knives with the same ranking are so close in performance that I was not able to differentiate between the knives. Please note that these numbers are for ranking only and are not a relative performance level (for example the difference between a 1 & 2 ranking may be much smaller than the performance difference between a 5 & 6). Knives of the same ranking are listed in alphabetic order.
In addition to relative ranks, a rating is assigned to each knife: U - Unacceptable; S - Serviceable; E - Excellent; O - Outstanding.
Unacceptable knives do not cut as expected. Either the cuts were not clean (requiring excessive force or multiple strokes) or the blade bruised or crushed the ingredient to an unacceptable degree. Serviceable knives performed their cutting action as expected. There is nothing exceptional about the knife - it simply performs as you'd expect an average knife to perform. More force is needed when using a serviceable knife than an excellent or outstanding one. Excellent knives slice with ease. The knives are properly balanced and sharp enough to feel as if the user is simply guiding the knife and the knife is performing the cutting. Outstanding knives simply perform beyond all expectations. The knife's cutting ability is noticeably better than that of an excellent knife.
These rankings do not take in account other factors such as cost, handle shape, and weight. They simply portray the cutting performance of the knife.
Carrot test
Rank | Knife | Notes | |
---|---|---|---|
O | 1 | Global G-2 | Felt effortless as the knife slid through the carrots. |
2 | MAC 8.0" with dimples | Cleanly cut through carrots. | |
MAC 8.5" | Cleanly cut through carrots. | ||
E | 3 | Tojiro DP | Cleanly cut through carrots. |
Tojiro PHS | Cleanly cut through carrots. | ||
4 | Nenox S1 | Cleanly cut through carrots. | |
5 | Shun Classic | Cleanly cut through carrots. | |
6 | Forschner | Cleanly cut through carrots. | |
S | 7 | Wusthof Classic | Most cuts were clean. |
8 | Henckels Pro-S | Some tearing occurred when cutting through the carrot. | |
U | 9 | Cutco | First carrot test did not cut through. Second carrot test yielded several pieces where the carrot was broken or torn off after cutting about 60% through. |
Potato test
Rank | Knife | Notes | |
---|---|---|---|
O | 1 | Global G-2 | |
2 | MAC 8.0" with dimples | Forward stroke is same as MAC 8.5", but reverse stroke cut noticably deeper and easier. | |
3 | MAC 8.5" | ||
Tojiro DP | |||
E | 4 | Nenox S1 | Hard a smoother feel while cutting that other knives, but required more force than Tojiro DP. |
Tojiro PHS | |||
5 | Shun Classic | ||
6 | Forschner | Slight sticky feeling as it sliced through the potato. | |
S | 7 | Wusthof Classic | |
8 | Henckels Pro-S | ||
U | 9 | Cutco | Hard to make straight slices (cut line curves outward at bottom of stroke - a trait of a dull knife). |
Tomato test
Rank | Knife | Notes | |
---|---|---|---|
E | 1 | Global G-2 | Glides through tomato |
MAC 8.0" with dimples | Glides through tomato | ||
2 | MAC 8.5" | Glides through tomato | |
Nenox S1 | Glides through tomato | ||
Shun Classic | Glides through tomato | ||
Tojiro DP | Glides through tomato | ||
Tojiro PHS | Glides through tomato | ||
3 | Forschner | Glides through tomato | |
S | 4 | Wusthof Classic | |
5 | Cutco | The cutting edge grips the tomato skin easily and as the knife is drawn through the tomato, it feels like a micro-serrated knife. | |
6 | Henckels Pro-S | Blade slipped slightly before catching and cutting through the tomato. |
Scallions test
Rank | Knife | Notes | |
---|---|---|---|
O | 1 | MAC 8.0" with dimples | Extremely clean cuts. |
MAC 8.5" | Extremely clean cuts. | ||
2 | Global G-2 | Extremely clean cuts. | |
E | 3 | Shun Classic | Cuts scallions cleanly. |
Tojiro DP | Cuts scallions cleanly. | ||
Tojiro PHS | Cuts scallions cleanly. | ||
4 | Nenox S1 | Cuts scallions cleanly. | |
S | 5 | Forschner | Very slight tearing. |
6 | Henckels Pro-S | Slight tearing during rapid chopping. | |
Wusthof Classic | Slight tearing during rapid chopping. | ||
U | 7 | Cutco | Completely fails test. Scallions were crushed and torn. |
Examining pure performance, the Global G-2 is the best of the bunch. However, the MAC places a very, very close second (with the 8-in. with dimples [MTH-80] coming out just a bit better than the 8.5-in. without dimples [MBK-85]). In fact, all three are exceptional performing knives.
Other factors
However, the purchase of a knife should not be based solely on its cutting performance. Other important factors to consider are up to the individual chef. Handle design may be the most important factor when buying a knife. If the handle doesn't feel comfortable, then chances are you won't be comfortable using the knife. A handle that feels comfortable in one grip may be uncomfortable when gripped another way. Unfortunately, this means I can't tell you which knife handle is best for you. I recommend going to a store where you can actually hold the knife. A store like Sur La Table, where you can practice a slicing motion on a cutting board, is your best bet for picking the right knife.
Another factor to consider is how the knife feels with your particular cutting motion. If the knife delivers a lot of shock to your hand as you chop or slice, you may want to seek out a slightly different design. For example, the two MAC knives have slightly different feels even though, visually, they seem to have identical curvatures. The general balance of the knife should feel nice to your particular style as well. Choosing a knife that is comfortable to you will help ensure that you won't wear yourself out when you have to do a lot of cutting.
I find that the Global G-2, although very light and an excellent performer, just doesn't fit my hand as comfortably as some of the other knives. The relatively thin handle and shallow taper to the blade makes holding the knife slightly awkward for me. I prefer a grip where my hand is choked up on the handle a bit allowing my thumb and forefinger to rest on opposite sides of the blade just in front of the bolster lip. The design of the Global knives just doesn't seem to let me grip that way and keep the knife from trying to twist out from under me. For that reason, my personal preference is the MAC MTH-80 MAC Mighty Chef 8" with dimples.
The styling and finished look of a knife is very important to many. For example, the Global G-2 has a very distinct look at many will find compliments the decor of their kitchens. The fit and finish of the Nenox S1 is one of the best I've ever seen. I find that the handle feels wonderful in my hand and also looks beautiful. In addition, the Nenox has some more detail work than the mass produced knives - for example, the spin of the knife has been carefully rounded and smoothed. (However, the bolster lip of the Nenox is a sharp right angle causing it to be a little more difficult to use.)
A final factor that I'm going to mention is the care of the knives. Although, many of the knives claim to be dishwasher safe, none of the knives should actually be washed in a dishwasher, except two - the Forschner Fibrox and the Cutco French Chef's will easily survive multiple cycles in a dish washing machine. You do need to make sure the blade will not bounce around or touch other objects in the dishwasher. The Cutco knife's handle may change color after several washes in the machine. My recommendation for all knives is to hand wash them and dry them immediately with a clean cloth.}?>
Conclusions
Cooking For Engineers Recommended:
MAC MTH-80 MAC Mighty Chef 8" with dimples ($110)
Overall best performance regardless of price:
Global G-2 20cm Cook's Knife ($86)
MAC MTH-80 MAC Mighty Chef 8" with dimples ($110)
MAC MBK-85 MAC Mighty Chef 8.5" ($120)
Best Value (Price for Performance):
RH Forschner Victorinox 40521 Fibrox 10-in. Chef's Knife ($29)
Please note that this knife does not fit in a standard knife block because the blade height is 2-1/8 inches (5.4 cm) and most knife block have slots for 2 inch (5.1 cm) knives. Victorinox does manufacture the equivalent knife with a 2-inch heel in an 8-in. length.
Best Value for Almost Outstanding Performance:
Tojiro DP F-808 21cm Gyoto Chef's Knife ($50)
When purchased from JapaneseChefsKnife.com, this Tojiro knife becomes an amazing bargain. When purchased from other vendors at higher cost, you might as well get a Global or MAC. This knife is also available from Korin Japanese Trading Corp. for $59.
Final notes of interest
Most salespeople working at the cutlery counter of your local stores will tell you that a forged knife is a sign of a strong sturdy knife and any forged knife is superior to a stamped knife. This may have been true in the past, but this is definitely no longer a universal truth. The two MAC knives tested in this article are stamped knives with bolsters that are welded on, ground, and polished. MAC Knife claims that using the stamped steel gives them a level of control over the tempering, the bevels, and the thinness of the blade. I don't know if all that's true, but I do know that the two chef's knives we tested out performed all of the forged knives. Ah, but, you argue, the MAC knives tied or were slightly beaten by the Global G-2? The Global G-2 is also a stamped knife.
Also, as a sanity check, I had several people come over and try out the MAC 8-in. with dimples along with several of the other knives shown in this article. Every single tester agreed that the MAC was the best knife that they had ever used.}?>
The tests were performed over two days (two Saturdays) and meticulous notes were kept. After the first day of testing, I really didn't want to continue with the article because I didn't want to deal with continuously washing and drying eleven knives and performing all the comparisons over and over (mainly due to limited counter space). By the end of the first two tests, I already knew which knives were probably going to come out on top - but I needed to finish the testing and documenting to prove it. Tina helped considerably the second day of testing by taking notes for me as I dictated while slicing and chopping. (I also cleared off the dining room table so I would only have to wash all the knives between tests instead of everytime I ran out of space.)
The write up took a lot longer than I expected, and technically I don't think I'm really done. The article took about five days to write, and I still remember more stuff that I want to add - so don't be surprised if the article changes to become a bit more detailed or clearer as time goes on.
Anyway, I hope my readers will find this article informative and interesting.
I'd love to read another test when you've had a chance to sharpen them on the Nortons. I rarely have a knife come from the factory/maker with a satisfactory edge, especially Tojiros. If you were to use your stones and put the same 8000grit edge on each knife I think you would be able to do a test that exposed the differences in the quality of the steel. Just a thought...
The tomato skin test, for example, is based entirely on the sharpness of the knife.
I'm a big Henckels/Wustoff fan, I have a few that I give regular love and maintenance and they could split a hair.
The only knife that is exempt from my criticism is Cutco which is supposed to never need sharpening. (overpriced garbage)
Then comes the matter of the steel. Japanese knives have harder steel than Western knives do, which increases wear resistance at the expense of brittleness (proportional to the hardness). This means that Japanese knives tend to hold their edges longer than Western knives do, and because the blades are thinner, they cut more easily.
Personally, I would have loved to see a Chinese cleaver (Chan Chi Kee, Suien, Nenox, etc.) included in the mix.
Misono UX-10, stamped blade
http://knifeoutlet.com/revolution.htm
The review would have been much stronger if you had used a well regarded local sharpening service or a consitent, repeatable system (such as the Australian Furi hones) to bring all of the knives to the same edge.
Consistent sharpening does not lead to consistent performance. Blade hardness, composition, bevel geometry, weight, and thickness all play a part in how well a knife cuts.
I highly recommend you re-release this review (which is of marginal utility at this point) after re-conducting it with consistently sharpened blades.
Great <i>idea</i> though. I was really looking forward to reading it.
They are offering Damascus kitchen knives w/VG-10 core, A.G. Russell kitchen knives w/wood Rucarta handles and KAI kitchen knives.
How do these compare with Henckels, Wusthof or the MAC MTH-80 you recommend?
They are offering Damascus kitchen knives w/VG-10 core, A.G. Russell kitchen knives w/wood Rucarta handles and KAI kitchen knives.
How do these compare with Henckels, Wusthof or the MAC MTH-80 you recommend?
I'm not a fan of full bolsters, but I've heard good things about A.G. Russell and VG-10 steel.
I think it bears noting that the reviewer bought these at a restaurant supply store. Knives used in industry are different from those used by amateur chefs. They are meant to be abused, run through the sterilizing dishwasher, and so on. These knives conspicuously display the NSF logo for the health inspector to see.
I have had fancier and more expensive knives, and I may try some of those reviewed here. But, I can absolutely say that the Forschner Victorinox are great knives at a bargain price.
Second, thanks for the tip on the Mac knife, a brand I have never used but have now added to my Amazon wishlist.
1) The most important part of a knife is the hand that holds it
2) A knife is a very personal ,every one has there likes and dislikes
3) A factory edge should be sufficient for any home user, We only had our knifes sharpened 1 a week, honing is important
4) All knifes tested here are GOOD knifes, this falls into personal taste, grip, hand size, weight and a mired of other factors.
I have "heard" great things but wanted some objective opinions. Anyone care to comment or would Mike be willing to test some cereamics down the road?
Sounds like for now, the MAC will top my wish list.
Also, I didn't follow your comment about the "shallow taper" to the Global's blade. Are you referring to the curvature of its blade? However, the MAC's don't look any more curved; in fact, the MTH-80 seems to an almost flat cutting edge (like a santoku).
In a previous comment, someone stated that the CUTCO knife
As an owner of CUTCO knives, I know that my straight-edged knives need regular sharpening. I did not purchase my set because I need a top performing Chef's knife. I purchased my set because the CUTCO steak and carving knives (with Double-D edges) cut well and are a pleasure for me to use.
/Torq
On hard Japanese blades I would only use glass smooth or very fine ceramic steels like the ones found here:
http://www.handamerican.com/steel3.html
With coarsely textured steels one has a very high risk of damaging a hard Japanese blade...
Personally I have avoided steels and use my highest grit polishing stone (8000) or flatbed leather hone to bring an edge back to life.
If the diamond steel you bought is very fine and is not harsh on the edge then I think you will be in good shape. I would advise using as little pressure as possible when using the steel. The weight of the knife is more than enough...
Get some good stones and learn how to do it yourself. It's a very rewarding skill.
http://users.ameritech.net/knives/ward.htm
That should get you started. Of course, if you don't want to do it freehand, or if you want to start off with a guide, there are several good sharpening systems available, the premier being the EdgePro Apex or Pro model.
Solid products and prices, and a few options depending on your need and skill
Having said that, I do have a criticsm. It is not a fair comparison to compare knives with a factory edge. Some manufactuorers intentionally leave the knive a little blunt for safety in transportation. You cannot get a like-for-like comparison with a factory edge because you can't know that they all have comparably sharp (or blunt) edges out of the factory.
I own a couple of Whustof knives and the difference between factory edge and newly sharpened is night and day. They are one company that has a policy of keeping the knives rather blunt and I did have cutting issues with them out of the factory.
I don't agree with the authors assertion that people reading this article and buying knives at this price are the sort of people who use the knives with a factory edge. I think most people reading this article are likely to be rather geeky about their knives.
To me, a good knife is also about how it performs over time and how well it does re-sharpen over and over again. Though I do appreciate the difficulty of defining and measuring this attribute. At a minimum I would love to see what would happen if all these knives where taken to a reputable knife sharper and the tests re-done.
The favourite knife was also the only knife to be bevelled. I wonder if that was the difference? Anyone got any thoughts on that?
That said, however, the best advice one can give for knife selection is: choose one that feels best in your hand. It is 100% subjective. It does you no benefit to buy a top rated knife that causes blisters.
All knives will get the job done. Over time how you treat the knife is up to you.
The company is run by engineers and the knives are designed by engineers, they consistently rate highly in reviews, I have two and they are the most comfortable and best performing knives I have ever used.
As an aside for the Anonymous Reader who bought a diamond steel, go easy on that blade. Diamond steels do more than just realign the blade. They will sharpen/take away matter when you rub the blade against them. Some knives can't be sharpened by a regular steel, so I'm not saying they steered you wrong, it's just a little trickier with a diamond/ceramic steel to accomplish what you need. And you will only ruin any blade if you don't know how to hold it at a proper angle to sharpen/hone it. So get some education, because it definitely is a worthwhile skill to acquire. Happy sharpening!
It should be worth noting that Shun Classic knives are available in left-handed models as well:
Chef's Resource's Left Handed Shun Catalog
Cutlery & More: Shun 8-in. Chef's for Left Handers
Not all stores carry them.
I agree with the individuality issue you mention. I recently picked up a left-handed Shun and love it. ;)
I've found that food service knives are the best balance between cost and function- the steel is decent and you can get a chef's knife for $40. I've used my Dexter-Russell set for ~5 years now- even though periodically someone has thrown them in the dishwasher or left them in a pan of water overnight. They're a bit hard to find- I go to a resturant supply store.
http://www.dexter-russell.com/Search_details.asp?id=639&group_name=sofgrip.asp
R/
Go to Razor Edge for tools and techniques to learn how to sharpen your knives yourself the correct and safe way.
The guys on here can make an ax sharp enough to shave with. You can make your knives sharp enough to be safe and efficient.
Why doesn't anyone here say it as it is? These knives are too bloody expensive!!! How many people would buy a knife that's more than $100?
or even $60? I think $50 is a good limit.
Why doesn't anyone here say it as it is? These knives are too bloody expensive!!! How many people would buy a knife that's more than $100?
or even $60? I think $50 is a good limit.
Isn't that why Michael recommended the Forschner as the best value for performance at $29?
lol
all the crazy knifenuts here: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/ where $100 for a good knife is considered a bargain and $50 is a steal...
A beautiful knife with a "super steel" core doesn't come cheap...
"SANETU" Cowry X Santoku 165mm http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SPECIALS.html
"Cowry X is the tough powdered metal alloy specially developed by Daido Steel Company for high performance cutting tools. It contains high carbon (3%) and high Chromium (20%) with 1% Molybdenum and 0.3% Vanadium, and can be heat treated to HRC63 to 67 without brittleness." - JCK
If you think the western style chef's knives reviewed on this site are expensive you probably won't believe these prices:
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KDSeries.html
Traditional honyaki knives are even worse... :shock:
However, my only beef (har har) is that only the tests did not include meat, poultry, and fish. In my view, cutting those materials is every bit as important as carrots, scallions, tomatoes, and potatoes. It would have been nice to create a battery of tests whose respective purposes were indexed according to what attributes of the knife are being tested.
Nevertheless, very nicely done!
Peace & Happy Cooking,
Kai
I'm too cheap to be cutting meats... plus I'd have to test the meats in fresh and frozen states...
Re sharpening. I buy lots of knives, and I've yet to see a company advertise that they ship dull for safety. Therefore, I say let the products as shipped speak for themselves, for three reasons:
1. Consumers shouldn't have to guess if they're getting a product that's ready to use or not. The product should be ready to use, even if that warrants warning stickers.
2. Depending on what "professional" sharpens them and how, you introduce variables of blade geometry and temper tampering into the tests, with what were virgin tools.
3. Sharpening is personal for the consumer, too. A geek like me who knows how to sharpen does it religiously and well. A person who wants a knife to function when they use it, and otherwise stay out of the way, needs to know which knives will bear up under rough treatment. My knives rock, but their factory edges are distant memories, and I consider the sharpening I've done to them over the years to be customization.
As for knives being too expensive, I always point my non-knifehead friends to the Forschner. A real giant killer, that. But for an enthusiast, "too expensive" is like telling a cowboy his Stetson or Resistol is too expensive. How much is too much to pay for a tool that might outlive you, and serve you superbly in the meantime? For something you only have to buy once, in a disposable world?
Subjective handle comfort comments would be great. It's personal, but it can give you an idea of what knife will fatigue large or small hands in particular.
In any case, nice test, and thanks for including knife weights. I've made my trade-up decision. :)
i own most of the knives tested, and will concur with most of your conclusions. what i find interesting is that the global, the macs, the forschner and the shun are all stamped blades! so much for all the
"experts" and their "expert opinions" that the best knives have to be forged.
modern stamping techniques can produce some very nice knives!
(OK, the cutco is also stamped, but how they command the price they
demand for that junky blade is beyond my imagination.) what others may not know is that the stamped knives tend to be very straight blades. i hang around one of the bay area's biggest knife shops (the perfect edge cutlery in san mateo) and i have examined hundreds of knives (they are very nice to me as i have bought lots of knives from them) and the stamped knives are very very straight compared to the forged knives. the forged knives often have something "unstraight" about them ... they are curved, dog legged, bent, twisted, and even wavy edged ... problems if you need to make long straight cuts, not a problem if all you do is chop and mince, but something to be aware of nonetheless.
in fact, many of my friends, who have bragged about their knives, were surprised when i mentioned many knives being unstraight. sure enough, they sighted down their forged knives and found me to be correct. i would then show them my knives and they are very noticeably straight.
it is very difficult to make long straight cuts with a crooked blade.
the other thing i will conjecture is that even if all the knives were to be sharpened by the same knife sharpener, the thinner the blade, the sharper the knife. (this is why straight edged razors, which are reeeally razor sharp, are always very thin bladed. i cannot understand, knowing physics, how a thick blade can ever approach the sharpness of a thin blade.) so even if the test were to be remade with all the knives sharpened, the results would probably be the same. german blade fans tend to be very loyal to their knives, but i have shown many of them my japanese blades and many have admitted that they have never actually USED a japanese blade and were surprised how much sharper they were compared to the german blades, even after bragging how their knives were "hair splitting sharp". misono, kikuichi, suisin, hirotomo, masamoto, and masahiro all make western styled chef knives that would easily rival and exceed the sharpness of german steel, and at an under $100 price.
actually, my latest buy, a $20 tarhong #1 carbon steel ping knife (chinese veggie cleaver) is proving to be a VERY sharp, VERY easy to handle cook's knife. after cleaning up the edge with just a few swipes of a 2000 grit waterstone, i was able to chop ten pounds of onions without shedding a single tear!! forget those "tips" about how to cut an onion without crying (partially freeze it, slice it under water, breathe thru your mouth and not your nose, breathe thru you nose and not your mouth, etc.) ... if your knife is truly sharp, you can cut/slice/chop an onion and you will not cry.
sorry for the long post, but ... just my thoughts.
Anyone have similar experiences?
MAC Knives has excellent customer service. Please ask your friend to contact MAC Knife, Inc. at (888) 622-5643 to talk directly to them.
My guess is that your friend may have twisted the blade once it was wedged into the cheese. Quality knives should be treated with care - they are finely constructed instruments. I don't recommend that knives be washed in the dishwasher (can bang around and get nicked or lose their tips), be thrown into a sink, or allowed to impact any surface besides vegetables, meat (avoid bones except with a cleaver or thick bladed chef's), and wood or plastic cutting boards. I've seen so many people using a granite board or rapping their knives on jars or bowls and then wondering why their edge is dull or chipped...
What are knives used for? To cut things. If they aren't sharp, they aren't going to cut well. Ergonomics and things such as that are all secondary to the quality of the cutting edge.
All of the knives in this review need to be sharpened and THEN retested. It's the only way to get accurate data. Manufacturers rarely ship new knives sharp. Even if they do, the amount of sharpness varies widely from manufacturer to manufacturer.
I've got a $10 Farberware Pro 8" chef's knife that I sharpened so sharp I could shave with it. It has been an absolute joy to use.
It's the edge that's important. Without it, it's just a butter knife.
A note about edges. The angle of the grind used to make more of a difference (before the ultra tough high temper stainless) in how long the edge will last. If you slice with the kife (rather than chop--which by the way is the trick for using a katana or other sword) the brittleness of the steel is not a problem.
Note that only a few years ago, no serious kife person would have recommended any stainless knife on the grounds that it wouldn't hold an edge. This is related to the stamped/forged argument too, the real reason that stamped knives used to be inferior (and they were!) was that the manufacturers didn't use the best steels in the stamped knives--they reserved them for their 'top line' forged knives.
Dull knives are dangerous learn proper maintenance for your particular blades.
Knives, being an extension of your hand (I tell my cats that my knives are my claws,) are extremely personal. Find one you are comfortable with, and which you feel in control with. Cutting off bits of yourself is not fun.
If you have no training in using a knife, I recomend that you study the subject & if possible have someone who knows walk you through the various uses. Best not to develop bad habits as they may be dangerous and will probably be less efficient (more tiring.) In general, the weight of the knife should do most of the work. If you have to put a lot of pressure on a knife to make a cut, then there is something wrong.
In the old days, when demonstrators were showing kives (in stores & at fairs and such) they used to put very fine edges on their knives. This makes the tomato test and the paper test very impressive--at the cost of having to rework the edge often.
My 2 cents.
As another here has already mentioned, The Chef's knife is the ONE AND ONLY Cutco knife I don't use, because once you use the Double D blade you never go back. It's funny that it's the one you chose to demonstrate with.
My steak knives were as sharp today as they were years ago, HONEST! until my son tossed my last one. So I just replaced all of the steak knives and look forward to using them for the rest of my life.
I still have the rest of the collection, and use them EVERY DAY.
The Double D is the ONLY way to go, too bad it's NOT ON THE CHEF'S KNIFE. You need to reconsider what you are using. A chef would not use this Cutco knife on a tomato or potato anyway.
-ddog
Well good cooking and good engineering
I recommend learning how to use waterstones. They work well with high Rockwell knives...
My full sharpening progression:
1. Norton 220, 1000, 4000, 8000 Water Stones
[img:c0cccf7cdb]http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/4026/stones19nn.th.jpg[/im...db][img:c0cccf7cdb]http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/6459/stones23wx.th.jpg[/im...db]
2. 12000 Kitayama Super Polishing Water Stone
[img:c0cccf7cdb]http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/2811/01099109kb.th.jpg[/im...db]
3. Handamerican 11"X3" Flatbed Leather Hone w/ 0.5 micron chromium oxide honing paste
An abundance of information on where to buy and how to sharpen properly can be found here:
Kitchen Knife Sharpening
These look funky on the website but they are inexpensive and surprisingly good performers:
http://www.warthers.com/kitchen_knives/index.php?cPath=21
As a chef I've used most of those knives and I think you're spot-on except for one minor detail: most knives are not shipped fully sharpened. To keep things equal you should have run each knife through a slot sharpener so that each was sharpened to the same angle.
As for Cutco knives, they are excellent for slicing, but not for cutting. Their "double D" edge is a type of serration (as much as they deny it) and only works well when a sawing motion is used. No chef I know uses one. I challenge ANY Cutco user to make fine bruniose (1/16 inch cubes) with their knife. Incidentally, we had an issue on a chef board I frequent where multiple "I love my Cutco" posts were made under different names from the same IP that, when checked, belonged to someone who sold Cutco.
I have a Mercer ($65) that I use for general work (cutting meat, chopping, opening bags) and a Calphalon Katana series($90) that I use for my fine work.
A good way to reprise this test might be to enlist the help of a local culinary class.
The main issues / critcisms that I have read seem to be:
1. (Biggest issue for most folks) A sharpened edge vs. a factory edge
2. Ergonomics impressions (will vary with the person)
3. Alternate cutting methods and/or materials
I have Gerber (both the Balance Plus and the older Aluminum handled knives), a low-end Sabatier set, and some of the mid-priced Japanese knives at home. I've also demo'd or borrowed at a friends place to use Henckles, Forscner, Shun, and others at various times. The biggest things to me were 1) Was it Sharp? and 2) Did it feel comfortable in my hand?
If you have a culinary school nearby, maybe you could let them do the work (sharpening and running the various knives through the paces in prep work). Then give them surey forms to fill out to get a more balanced follow-up on the review. Include items like hand size and their own preferred knives to help give a way to balance their responses and you might get some informative input.
http://www.futurechef.com/product.asp?item_no=MAC-MTH-80
I have a few different knives, mostly less-than-stellar quality as I'm just coming out of "dirt-poor student" mode. However, one that I like is the Peasant Chef's Knife from Lee Valley Tools. Why? To be honest, there's no scientific reasoning, I just like the feel of it. But then, I'm still very much a n00b when it comes to knives.
Oh, and for those who were thinking Shun knives are for rightys only, you should read Alton Brown's website - he specifically mentiones they make left-handled knives, since he's a lefty too.
first, i seem to notice that all the major (and minor) knife companies brag about how sharp their knives are. if they are indeed shipped "dull", that would be totally counter to their bragging, no? why would a company brag about how sharp you can GET their knives, since a good sharpener can get any knife sharp? just an observation.
secondly, if you COULD do the test all over again, but this time with all the knives sharpened by the same person, i feel the results would not change significantly because the top rated knives all had/have a thin blade profile.
the german knives tend to have a thicker profile, ergo, the 22 degree bevel on both sides of the blade. the japanese blades, with more like a 10-15 degree bevel on both sides, will feel sharper due to less of the "wedging" effect of the thinner blades.
third, there may be some perception of addition sharpness with blades that have a rougher or irregular texture on the blades. with blades that are perfectly flat and polished, foods like potatoes tend to stick to the blades via some sort of suction (even try to slice a potato in half and the potato sticks to the blade so hard that you found it hard to pry the potato off the knife?)
as i have previously mentioned, i own most of the knives used in the test and i found most will pale in comparison to my chan chi kee (CCK) no.2 slicer cleaver. this large (25cm X 12.5cm) blade has a 2cm edge that is
thinner than a business card. This knife i sharpen at a 5 degree bevel ...
maybe less. as i have observed, the thinner the blade and the shallower the angle, the sharper a knife blade.
The functionality of my knives is upgraded significantly by using a sharpening method involving a series of 3 to 5 waterstones and resulting in a mirror polish. "Steels and rare occasional stone use" (assuming one JIS 1000 stone or lower) simply does not produce an edge that I find satisfactory. What are your experiences with knives sharpened progressively to JIS 8000 or higher?
no, the lower grits are only needed for re-beveling when the knife still has the rough factory bevel or requires edge defects to be worked out. I only use the leather hone or one of the fine stones before a day's work.
Only a couple mm's which make up the edge bevel (not the sides) gets polished and the edge is certainly affected in the process. It is not the mirror polish that improves the cutting effectiveness. Rather, it is the alignment of the edge that improves with the use of finer and finer abrasives. The mirror polish is simply the visual side effect of using an extremely fine abrasive.
It sounds like you have a good system that fits your needs and I respect that. Personally, if I was to use a steel I would probably start with a "glass smooth" steel and then use a fine ceramic when necessary (http://www.handamerican.com/products.html). I am obsessed with getting my knives as sharp as I can afford and I find that I get the best performance when the edges are taken to the finest abrasive level possible.
Get the Wusthof Classic or Henckels Professional S. DO NOT get the Global unless you like the feel of their handles. I find them too small and their roundness and unnatural taper makes them harder to control than Wusthof or Henckels knives.
My question is: how or where can I get a set of six ceramic edged Henckels knives sharpened? I bought them in Germany between about 1995 and 2000. They never did sell these in the US nor are they any longer sold in Germany.
Any suggestions anyone?
My question is: how or where can I get a set of six ceramic edged Henckels knives sharpened? I bought them in Germany between about 1995 and 2000. They never did sell these in the US nor are they any longer sold in Germany.
Any suggestions anyone?
Find out who sharpens the Kyocera ceramic knives and see if they will do the Henckels for you.
Yeah, we'll accept you because you were a math major-that's close enough.
http://drsharpening.com/
Dave at DR Sharpening is well respected, and has experience with ceramic blades.
Trained Criminal investagive auditor and insurance auditor. Currently, + for many years, financial, strategic and production planer and venture capital investor. I need absolutely repeatable, consistant, return producing results for larges groups of organizations and individuals.
So when your reviews differed from Consumer Reports, and the chat around the stores ( many hate global for poor performance ) I got excited. What is the truth. Many years of using Henckels, Wustof, Shun, Dexter Cleavers, and recently Katana, with many many knives (own 40 or so, 20+ chef's knives.) Truth is in everything said.
My findings indicate that no knife is great out of the box. As a producer myself, it would just be too damb expensive to assure that. That being said, there is a limit to the sharpness range to a given knife, and more importantly, with each indivual knife of a given manufacturer's model! Example, went thru 11 Henckels Pro S 8" Chef's Knives. Every one was different before and after home sharpening. The sharpest, out cutting MAC, Shun, etc was much sharper than the dullest, which would not go thru an onion. Huge difference. Found this to be the case with all German Knives. Japanese were, as there cars, much more consistant, and generally razor sharp when new.
Have found that though Japanense knives seem to be sharper and cut better than most German knives ( a good Henckels will beat them though, and hard to get) new, the get dull quickly. Cannot resharpen them to original edge after just a few uses. My Shuns are duller than President Bush's speeches. My Katana, which when used to I love, also dulled almost immediately. Though they, while being obviously dull, still cut better than most. Explain that one please! The one absolute, Henckels definitely sharper than Wustof. Every time. MAC to new to see how edge holds. Global dislike for bad balance, and they are not sharp! Eveone in the store here complains about that and gets mad after listening to reviews of greatness then buying.
I have settled on Henckels as my primary. Went thru many chef's knives to get 8" Four Star & Pro S, with and without dimples that are sharp. The one exception to the comparisons is Santokus from Henckels are sharper than any Japanese knife out of the box and down the road. I asked Henckels about this, and they replied by design the do not make the other knives sharper, though they can do so easily. Lost my notes why, but I am sure they will respond to inquiry.
Good luck to all
My findings indicate that no knife is great out of the box. I have settled on Henckels as my primary. Went thru many chef's knives to get 8" Four Star & Pro S, with and without dimples that are sharp. The one exception to the comparisons is Santokus from Henckels are sharper than any Japanese knife out of the box and down the road. I asked Henckels about this, and they replied by design the do not make the other knives sharper, though they can do so easily. Lost my notes why, but I am sure they will respond to inquiry.
Good luck to all
I agree that no knife out of the box is as sharp as someone skilled in sharpening can do at home. If I had pick a favorite, I would say the Wusthof Classic is very slightly better than the Henckels Pro-S because it can be sharpened to an ever so slightly sharper edge and it lasts slightly longer during use. I say this without prejudice, because I own about a dozen of each brand in my collection. Needless to say, both are fantastic.
EVERY knife needs to be sharpened with a steel between uses to keep its scalpel/razor like edge. A knife isn't ready to use until it shaves hair. I have OCD and a fetish for sharp knives. :)
QUESTION: I never got into using a Santoku, nor do I own one. I use wide chef's knives of different sizes. What is it about Santokus that is making them so popular? Is it just a new fad? I think I would miss the point on the chef's knife when I needed to pierce something or cut out an imperfect part of the food I was preparing.
Since you're a sharpness junkie, try this excercize my knifeskills instructor gave us: wrap your cutting board in plastic wrap and slice green onions (making sure to get all the way through) without cutting the plastic. Scoring the plastic is OK, but it should hold water when you're done.
I started using my parents Chicago Cutlery. A decent starter knife but far from very useful.
I then bought myself some Wusthof Classic chef knives. It was worlds apart. I loved using it. It was sharp. I was able to keep it sharp by sharpening as needed.
I then saw Global. I loved the look and ordered some. I loved the weight and sharpness of them. I have small hands so they fit great. I am able to do great things with them. I have 6 Global knives (3" paring, 6" serrated, 5.5" vegetable, 8" chef, 9" bread and 13" flexible carving). I love how they keep the edge and are able to stay razor sharp. I do have a Global sharpening kit.
While at a knife skills class recently, I was able to use a Kyocera ceramic knife. It was much sharper than mine. It felt great to cut with. It was lighter than my Globals which are much lighter than the Wusthofs. I loved how it cut. No bruising or crushing. It was great. Now I just have to arrange to get one.
Since you're a sharpness junkie, try this excercize my knifeskills instructor gave us: wrap your cutting board in plastic wrap and slice green onions (making sure to get all the way through) without cutting the plastic. Scoring the plastic is OK, but it should hold water when you're done.
I am not familiar with this. Is the purpose so you learn to use only the force needed to cut through the food and not strain your hands? What difference does it make if you cut through the plastic in this excercise? I admit I'd probably cut through-my cutting board has cut lines on it, that over the years have become a mosaic from chopping food. Please elaborate.
I am an industry chef and the last new knife I purchased was a Kai (Japan) Shun Santoku. I find it is just the most perfect knife and I use it for 90% of the kitchen work I do. The shape is not a fad. It cuts, slices and chops, turn the blade over and the rounded edge is great for buttering bread! It still has a point and a sharp one at that, which is fine for cutting out bad bits and piercing. Tonight I spatchcocked a chicken (cut the backbone out), sliced potatoes, chopped onions and garlic, and then jointed the chicken when it was cooked. I get my knife professionally sharpened once a year, and I steel it about once a week. Every 4 months it might need a touch up on a waterstone. It is usually shaving sharp. VG10 10 is a great steel and the damascus pattern and gold lettering, make the Kai/Kershaw Shun stand out.
I am not familiar with this. Is the purpose so you learn to use only the force needed to cut through the food and not strain your hands? What difference does it make if you cut through the plastic in this excercise? I admit I'd probably cut through-my cutting board has cut lines on it, that over the years have become a mosaic from chopping food. Please elaborate.
It's about an experienced chef showing off *wink*
Seriously, the point is control and sharpness. If your knife is truly sharp you don't need much pressure, so the excercise is to learn how to use just enough and no more.
No, I have not had the opportunity to sit down and test a double-D against a "standard" serrated knife. In truth, I use serrated blade infrequently - mainly as a bread knife or if I'm someone else's home and don't have my knives with me...
if you have the time, read through the essay on egullet... very thorough.... and goes over more of the science/physics than cfe
:D
I think you should have tested them on meat and fish too!
Any knife's edge should reflect its intended use. Just as their are many types of teeth on saws, depending on what you intend to cut with them, knife edges should not all be the same.
Most people agree that bread knives are more effective when they are coursely serrated, and a sharp knife with a coursely sharpened blade, (one that leaves thousands of tiny but sharp stridations on it), will cut more tomatoes easily than one with a polished razor edge. Fact is that polished razor edges may be deadly sharp, but they make lousy cooking edges becase they tend to dull much more quickly and be harder to touch up quickly, than their roughter counterparts. Razor edges aren't even desirable for many kitchen jobs because they bite too quickly into things you may not want to cut into, like when you are trimming meat and poltry. Sometimes its nice to be able to follow the contour around obstacles instead of cutting into them.
Its also not fair to compare the cutting pressure of knives with vastly disimilar blade angles and surfaces. A good knife is comfortable to use, requires less effort to use, and stays sharper than a bad one, on the task you use it to do. And for the record I don't push any of my knives through carrots, I chop them very quickly.
I have thourally enjoyed the forum and do have an extensive collection of kitchen knives that were almost all purchased used, and many were old rusty forged carbon steel knives when I bought them for next to nothing. I enjoy restoring them, putting a good edge on them, and using them.
Anamouse@earthlink.net
Imagine my shock when I got it and the D-handle fit my left hand perfectly - the flat against my palm, my fingers curving around the right half of the 'D'!
Literally, I picked up the knife and it felt perfect.
Even using a proper knife grip, it felt perfect.
Has anyone else experienced/seen this??
Does anyone have any personal experience with either of these knives, or any recommendations?
Is anyone familiar, other than what the Wuhstof pamphlet says, with the Le Cordon Bleu line of knives? I would really appreciate some help.
Thank you.
I've been thinking about getting my own knife (I only ever use one and I use it for everything) for a while now. This has given me much to consider.
Now I just have to find sources of the knives in Canada... Google here I come.
I love your site, and the way you have the recipes is exactly how I think...
Once again, awesome, and keep up the site!
Amanda
As another here has already mentioned, The Chef's knife is the ONE AND ONLY Cutco knife I don't use, because once you use the Double D blade you never go back. It's funny that it's the one you chose to demonstrate with.
My steak knives were as sharp today as they were years ago, HONEST! until my son tossed my last one. So I just replaced all of the steak knives and look forward to using them for the rest of my life.
I still have the rest of the collection, and use them EVERY DAY.
The Double D is the ONLY way to go, too bad it's NOT ON THE CHEF'S KNIFE. You need to reconsider what you are using. A chef would not use this Cutco knife on a tomato or potato anyway.
I was doing a CUTCO search on their rockwell hardness rating and pull in this site and your message. There is a ton of Cutco of all generations being sold on eBay and just worh checking out. For out of production Cutco, there is plenty for sale by many sellers and a good buyers guide on dating your Cutco. Paul
I have recently been doing some research into knives, originally with the intention of determining what is the "best" knife in the world. What I have found out is that there is no such thing. As so many have said before me, the qualities that make a knife "the best" are variable and very subjective.
For instance, different types of steel have different characteristics. Some are very difficult to sharpen, but hold an edge for a long time and do not rust. Some must be handled with care to prevent rusting, but are super easy to re-sharpen to a razor's edge. Some knives a lightwieght, but are not constructed as durably as heavier knives. Some people may want a cheap knife that won't need sharpening for five years, at which time they will throw it away and buy another, and some people want to pass their beloved forged knife on to their grandchildren... It all depends.
What struck me most about the review was the sincerity of the reviewer, as well as the naivity of his tests. It proved the adage well: sometimes we are ignorant not only of the answers, but of what questions to ask. Being an engineer does not automatically grant expertise in the very complex subject of knife design. For expertise I would look for reviews written by someone who has devoted himself to the complex subject more deeply than our reviewer.
Still, keep up the good work. It's cool to find such a big forum for other knife geeks.
She has Mac, Hattori, and Wustoff that she uses regularly.
Her comments are these:
European knives are solid and heavy built knives. They are made very well and will last a lifetime. About the knife, they are thicker and the blade edge is usually sharpened to 20-25 degrees.
She mentioned this is fine for standard western cooking. It chops, cuts, and slices well. They are well made.
However, the knife is made for a different purpose - as the Western Foods are prepared different than Japanese food.
Most of her Japanese knives are sharpened only on one side, thinner than the German knives, lighter weight, and hard steel.
Many dishes she prepares require very thin slices, which she could never do with her Wustoff.
She sharpens her own knives and said that she can sharpen them all equally sharp, but the hard Japanese steel knives can take a sharper 10-15 degree edge - because of the harder steel - which can not be done on the softer German knives.
We spoke a long time about it and I tried all her knives.
She stopped me and said. These are her knives and work for her, but may not be right for me. Because she loves them and has become familiar with them, does not mean they are the best - only the best for her.
Her basic rules.
1. Your cooking style. If you are preparing normal western type dishes - then any German type of blade edge will do, but if you plan on preparing some specialty dishes (Japanese in her case) then you may need a one-sided 10-15 degree blade for paper-thin cuts.
2. Your Hands. She mentions the blade becomes and extension of the cook's body. Everyones hands are different sizes and finding the right handles/grip is as important as the blade. It is about balance - almost Zen like.
3. The need of your knife. She recommends NOT to purchase a knife block and set (even if they are your favorites - because each knife is different), but instead find 3 knives that meet your needs (they could be from 3 different manufactures).
a. A pairing knife
b. A cutting and slicing knife (chief's knife 7"-10")
c. A chopping knife (cleaver or you could use a heavy santoku).
(side note: she does not own a santoku)
In the future you can get other types of knives (boning, cleaver, etc, but these three will be your go to knives.
4. The quality. Once you find the types of knives you need - the quality needs to be evaluated.
She mentioned the German knives are softer steel. She believes that they are easier to sharpen, but won't hold the edge as long. Since the angle is 20-30% - the softer steel is fine - since the blade edge will be thicker. Her Wustoff is one of the knives she uses often (8" Chef Knife) - pretty old.
Japanese knives are harder steel to hold the thinner edge that is required, but this can make the knife more brittle. Most of her knives are Japanese.
She said - forget the brand name - that is not important. TRY TRY TRY every knife you can. You will know the one that is right for you when you try it. It will sit well in the hand (your hand) and the balance will be perfect for your needs. The knife should ALWAYS be sharpened after you purchase it.
She told me in Japan that where she bought her knives, they would sharpen them right in the shop after purchase on Whetstones - so they don't need to be sharpened when you get them home. They don't do that at Macy's! However, almost every knife you purchase in a store in the US needs be sharpened when you get them home.
I tried all kinds of knives.
I am not a professional, but here is my experience.
Globals - did not fit my hand and I didn't like the feel of the handle. It cut very well.
Furi - felt cheap to me. I didn't really like the plastic handle. I didn't try the full metal handle version. They only had Santokus - which seems like a fairly new gimick that everyone is on the band wagon with.
MAC (originals) - I really liked the angle of the handle to the blade. I really liked the pairing knife.
MAC (Pro) - more western style then the originals - like them better than the Global.
Hattori HD - lightweight and handle fit very well in my hand. I really liked the balance.
Shun - Loved these, but they didn't feel right - really wanted to purchase them - but I was not comfortable. I didn't like the round handle, but that is just me. I love the look.
Henkels - after trying all those Japanese knives these were heavy. I liked the heavy weight (made me feel like I was holding something solid). However, I was getting used to the nimbler Japanese knives.
Wustoff - same as the Hinkels but the balance was better. I noticed with the German knives that I tested that the bolsters had rough/sharp edges which can be smoothed with some grinding. I guess I don't always hold my knife properly - because I didn't like the sharp edges.
Viking - didn't like them at all. The handles were very square, thick blades, and overly heavy.
Cursco (sp?) - seemed cheap, hate the handle, and the serated blade (my stepmom said stay away from these type of blades).
I tried a few others, but nothing really stood out.
There were some others that I want to try, but could not find them available to try.
The results.
I bought the Hattori HD Chief's knife, the MAC (original) pairing knife.
I am still looking for a couple of more knives, but this is my starting point. I will keep my old Henkels Set in the block for a while.
My stepmother gave me some whetstones (400,1000,2000). She had me start with my old Hinkels and I got them very sharp (sharper than when I bought them). I was rather surprised how sharp I got them.
I asked if I got the right ones, she smiled and looked at me. She said "How would I know, they are your knives! Only you would know that answer."
I really love my MAC and Hattori, but I have found that I am still using one of my Henkles since I have sharpened it.
The lesson I learned is that it is very individual for each person and sharpening is very important - as well as care.
She did point out that Quality is very important. Both Japanese and German knives have lower-end steel products that sell at Target and Macy's. Just because it has a Japanese or German brand name on it, doesn't mean it is good - it could be made in China with just their brand name on it. - BUYER BEWARE!
Couple of follow-up. She doesn't recommend any serrated type cooking knives (you can't sharpen them). Also - make sure you are getting the premium line in the Henkles, Wustoff (because both of them sell a cheaper version - that is made of low quality steel). You get what you pay for.
Hope my experience helps.
Can't wait to visit Japan with her and have her show me around.
Looking to buy a top-notch knife, and I can't help but be drawn to the Shun line-- they're just so sexy. Shuns seem to come out in the middle of most reviews of high-end cutlery, BUT I've noticed that everyone is reviewing the Shun classic line. Good knives, but I bet they're not as good as Shun Pro or the new Shun Pro 2.
Has anyone tried the Shun Pro or the Shun Pro 2 line? How do they compare with MAC, Global, or other top-rated brands?
Looking to buy a top-notch knife, and I can't help but be drawn to the Shun line-- they're just so sexy. Shuns seem to come out in the middle of most reviews of high-end cutlery, BUT I've noticed that everyone is reviewing the Shun classic line. Good knives, but I bet they're not as good as Shun Pro or the new Shun Pro 2.
Has anyone tried the Shun Pro or the Shun Pro 2 line? How do they compare with MAC, Global, or other top-rated brands?
The Shun Pro lines are traditional Japanese single bevel knives. The Deba and Yanagiba shape are specialized for the Japanese style of butchering and preparing fish and don't work as well as the double bevel western knives for other tasks. However, You may like the Nakiri for cutting thin slices of vegetables.
The "Shun Elite" line exclusive to Sur La Table is a different story. Its a higher end version of the western double bevel Shun Classic line. They feature high hardness powdered steel and contoured handles with spacers and mosaic pins. Very pretty but extremely pricey
A Shun Classic or Elite is a Japanese knife with a German profile. Way too much belly in my opinion. I greatly prefer the profile of a true Japanese Gyuto instead of the bastardized western version.
Check out: http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ and visit Knifeforums
My knives up till now have been Henckels professional 's'. I'm very happy with them. I use a global sharpener once a year to keep them sharp. After hanging out *a lot* in the kitchen, I find it's also nice to have a knife you can treat badly. My favorite was one I found in a rented apartment. And to be fair, I kept it when I left. Just loved it so much.
When I finally looked at it, it turned out to be a raadvad! Which is owned by fiskars now. Lovely rosewood handle. Wood handles are great.
The trick is to buy knives slowly, say one at a time. Each one has it's own personality. The utility knife by Henkels TWIN fin, is a brilliant knife. Reminds me of a porsche. But every once in a while, you wanna go out in a cinquecento....
I find that use my chef's knives less and less. (Coindentally, I also rock my knife less and less and find that the chopping motion is more efficient with a very sharp kinfe.) I cook just about everyday and I tend to use my dimpled mighty Mac santoku 90% of the time. It's the best onion cutting knife that I've ever used (theres hardly any resistance) and I tried many knives. It would be great to see a review on santokus.
My experience is that the chefs I've worked with who had Henckels all used the 4 Star and Ceramic, none used the Pro-S. I assume that the 5 Star and Pro S are marketing gimmicks and aren't really made any better even though they sound like it. I've been told that the quality of Henckels and Wusthof is nearly the same as they have a similar lineage. Henckels is apparently younger and cheaper but the same quality and what most of the chefs I work with use.
I have about half Japanese knives and half Henckels right now and they are great for different things. My only issue is that with heavy use I've had to replace some of the Japanese knives, but than again they are much cheaper to replace.
I recently bought the Tojiro DP you tested. It is a nice knife at a great price, though the handle takes some getting used to (a bit too angular). I already had a Global G-2 and Wusthoff classic. And you're right: nothing really cuts like a sharp Global. I was initially unhappy with the Global handle too, but it can grow on you after some use.
My advice to people who don't live near stores where they can test good knives: buy from places on-line that offer full money-back guarantee. Just don't plan on using the knife when it arrives if you plan on sending it back after handling it. Also, lightly used knives make good presents!
I researched both, and I found global to be superior. GLOBAL KNIVES ARE NOT STAMPED, THEY ARE DROP FORGED. The difference between stamped and drop forged is that drop forged knives are heated and pounded until the desired shape is attained. A stamped knife is just stamped, ususally once or twice, and then sharpened.
More about Global:
Global knives are hammered, according to their website, 17 times before they are inspected for shape. Furthermore, Global is relatively new to the cutlery game. Before WWII, Global made Samurai Swords for the Japanese Army, but after WWII, there was a "lack of demand" for Samurai Swords, so they turned to kitchen swords(knives as some of you may call them.)
Personally, I kindof like imagineing my Globals striking down ninjas while I make stir-fry, but maby that's just my inner geek talking.
So far I like the look of the Globals, their lifetime guarantee, price and the slightly (apparently easier sharpening than some Asian knives). I'm not sure I'll get on with the handles though. Wusthof I like but the German brands do seem to be losing some popolarity. Shun appeals too but again I will need to try the handles to see. Hopefully I can get some Global and Shun on apro and give them a go.
1. Henckels are stamped knives, made from ribbons and welded fake bolsters.
(from their manufacturing video.)
2. Wusthof are also stamped knives, also made from ribbons and welded fake bolsters.
(from their manufacturing video, too.)
3. Global have Stamped knives (G, GS series) and Forged knives (GF, GSF series).
But they said they just forged the blade, not full tang (handle is welded).
4. Shun also have Stamped knives and Forged knives (Ken Onion series).
P.S.
I don't know whether both Global and Shun are telling the truth or not, or just like Henckels and Wusthof?
Maybe most of famous brands are fake forged knives now ......
That being said, there is a reason that most people like Henckels. The are easily the best in our view. I personally own Henckels, Wustoff, Shun, Katana, Global, Victorinox in matching blades ( I like knives ). Have used most of the others.
Clearly, the Henckels are the strongest, easiest to control and fastest in results. They are, and have been in my past 20 years of using them, by far the sharpest of all blades. I like Wustoff too, but cannot use them as am an athelete and several pros and solider friends use my knives to and Wustoff not as strong. They woble and vibrate in comparsion, transmitting shockwaves up the blade and become less stable to us. For non athletes this may not be a problem. But if you are strong and fast, it most surely will be.
Wustoff though are more stable than most of the others. Love the Shuns, though not as sharp as Henckels. But under pressure they wobble much. Global worse. Even thier forged ones wobble big time, though less so then the stampers.
We have snapped the Macs, though not used newer ones. And they are less elegant in balance than Henckels so we gave up.
Good cutting.
It should be tested by cutting in slices.
For example,
cut the slices for burger, you should cut the tomatoes in half first, separating top and bottom. Then hold the tomatoes with side tip on the board, and then try to cut a 5mm wide slice.
Now, it sounds easy to cut. But if you a nice 3 inches diameter tomatoes with mostly juice in it, then a dull knife will have some difficulties.
1. Dull knifes will slide on the skin of the tomatoes
2. It will crush the tomatoes and push the juice out since there is the huge opening from the "half cut" for juice to leak. and there is no solid part in a juice tomato to stand any pressure.
3. It all depends on the sharpness of the knife since you can't put any pressure. If apply any pressure, then slice will not be perfectly round.
Given the above information, cutting tomatoes can only test the sharpness of the knife. Any "non-dull" knife can do the trick, so it doesn't really tell the quality of the steel.
In fact, I have been using only bread knife for cutting tomatoes by not really cutting, but tear them. I do get nice round slices though.
Verification of this anomoly was important to me as I plan to purchase perhaps this chef's knife in the near future.
Secondly, since I cannot make a Rockwell C test of this knife [the clerks get kinda wierd when I punch small dimples in their knives :lol: ] would anyone have data on Rc hardness of the forged Henckel and Wusthof chef knives. Have read of difficulties in sharpening these German steel knives and am wondering why?
Thanks for your interest and time for any replies.
Thanks for your interest and time for any replies.
I'm wondering why also. I have had Henckels and Wusthofs for 25-30 years and they are easy to sharpen with a steel to the point that they shave hair.
But.....which is it....8/128ths inch ...OR....9/64ths inch on the Henckels.
But.....which is it....8/128ths inch ...OR....9/64ths inch on the Henckels.
I found my original notes from when I took the measurements and I wrote down 1/8 (8/128). I remember vaguely that I was surprised and measured again to make sure and then moved on with the measurements. But apparently wrote down some conflicting values. Henckels has since taken back their Pro-S knife... so I'll have to sweet talk someone from Sur La Table or BBB to let me go at a couple samples with my calipers...
The Wusthof wide 8" chefs is 10/64, but their wide 10" and the standard width chefs 12" is a bit more than 21/128.
#1 Note: I'm using a etched stainless steel ruler with 1/64" gradations, reading it with magnifying loupes, not a caliper. The caliper in my office is metric, anyway.
#2 Note: The wide bladed chefs are about 1/4" wider (blade height) than regular chefs, so maybe they are also a hair thicker than regular chefs.
to those who were shocked by the price of a good knife
these knives are of the highest quality i have an 80 year old knife made by f. dick that was my grandfathers
in essence these knives will outlive you and are worth every penny if you take good care of them
Cheers.
The MTH-80 is a Chef's Knife. MAC does make a comparable santoku which I have used before (but did not like as much as the MTH-80 even with all teh hype surrounding santokus right now) which is their MSK-65.
I have been in touch with a very nice guy called Harold Arimoto at MAC in the States and he recommends the following companies:
Hansen's Kitchen Equip
306 Fulham Rd
London
020-7351-6933
Continental Chef Supplies
7-8 Burdon Dr
North West Industrial Estate
Peterlee, County Durham England
0191-518-8073
Tim
My question is that if anybody has used them before, how do they compare to the Globals & MAC's (2 brands i'm considering). I haven't found a place near me that would let me test these brands. Thanks in advance!
Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about this knife, particularly whether it will stay sharp and hold a good edge, and also whether it is strong/stiff or flimsy. I could just shell out $20 to find out, but thought I'd check here first. Thanks in advance!!
I am glad that Mike stated his assumptions up front: "All of the knives were tested out-of-the-box because I made the assumption that most readers will not be hand sharpening their knives."
If it were not for that statement, I would have disregarded the test results as pap since they differ so much from my personal experience. I would never judge a knife by its cutting ability "right out of the box". I am a lifer (over-50) knife junkie who has ALWAYS sharpened all my own knives and those of many friends, too. 25 years ago I got my first set of Razor Edge sharpening guides and the coarse/fine stone set. Unless you sharpen and maintain your knives, you can never really know how good or bad they are. And ultimately "how good they are" depends on what you want to do with them. Nearly everyone who has ever handed me a dull, nicked, edge-abused blade has gotten back a tool that was ready to go to work and cut/slice stuff like they had never cut/sliced before. Sharpening isn't hard - you just have to appreciate the most important principles - keep a constant edge angle (that's where the sharpening guides are critical), progress from the coarsest stone necessary to get the bevel right with the minimum amount of work, then work to the finest stone needed to get the edge that works for you. It's really simple - just requires a little patience and practice, and not a very big investment in the hardware part (guides and stones). The rewards of effortless meat, fish or vegetable slicing, dicing, chopping, carving, filleting, etc more than offset the little bit of effort to get and maintain a really good edge.
For the record, with all my good to great BIG NAME cutlery, I think Cutco makes a really good product. Cutlery snobs may sneer at me and Cutco, but we should judge a product by its performance. Of course I bought it for all the wrong reasons (son of a friend working his way through college), but have been remarkably surprised by the quality and results I can get. Sure, you overpay when you buy Cutco, but the double-D edge is fantastic for some jobs, like making really thin slices of cooked or even raw meat. I learned the hard way how sharp this edge is the first time I was careless and got too close to the meat of my fingertip - live and learn. And I really love my conventionally edged Cutco Santoku - I keep it sharp as a razor, and its cuts effortlessly.
Bottom line - 95% of the kitchen knives most people own are inherently more capable than their owners can appreciate if they are not kept sharp. Even a "modestly" good knife, whether judged by objective test methods, online reviews, or hard practical use, can do what 95% of the users out there (including me) need it to do. When a properly sharpened knife of whatever brand starts to hold you back from efficiently doing what you need the knife to do, only then is it time to start looking for that 2% performance increase that will probably cost you $50 or $100 to get. If you have the dough and need to spend it on a vanity, go ahead - but you really ought to invest the time and a few bucks to learn how to produce a good edge in the first place, then maintain the edge.
When you get into the higher end knives, the market includes more experienced cooks and knife users, who increasingly do their own sharpening and maintenance. For this group, a diferent set of criteria makes sense.
High end knife customers are not interested in out-of-the-box sharpness, but in edge geometry and in most of the following characteristics of the steel:
-Ability to take a very fine edge
-Ability to retain that edge for a long time (especially helpful to professional cooks, who with the best knives can beat on them 8 hours a day for a weak at a time without intermittent maintenance)
-Ease of sharpening. There is a big difference here. Many of the harder knife steels, especially stainless ones, can be a bitch to sharpen. Some are quite easy.
-Toughness. The drawback of some of the thin, hard blades is that they're fragile. Someone in an earlier comment advocated hacking through bone with a Global. This is a good way to completely trash the knife! A stouter, softer-steel European knife, or a specialized heavy duty Japanese one (Deba) is best for the rough stuff.
Finally, I disagree with the commenter who suggested ergonomics are unimportant. If you use a knife a lot, the way it feels in your hand might be at least as important as the edge quality.
It would be nice to see a followup test of some of these knives, based on long-term use, abuse, and sharpening. Such a test would of course be much more subjective, but I suspect it would reveal why knives like the Nenox cost what they do. It might also show that there's a place for the heavy German knives, even if they're not up to the sharpness standards of the Japanese. It would also be interesting to throw one or two carbon steel knives into the mix. There's a reason they have a devout following.
And by the way, that "double d" edge is by every conventional definition a serrated edge. If an edge has teeth, ridges, grooves, or waves ... any irregularity big enough to see without a magnifying glass ... it's serrated. Some serrated edges work better than others (wavy edged knives like the Mac bread knife work great on crusty bread), but none is suitable for chopping, mincing, dicing, or any of the things that chef's knife gets used for most often. There are generally good at two things: bread crust, and keeping a dull edge semi-functional.
The good news about cutco is that you can get pretty good money for it on ebay. Why not unload it and get a real knife?
About Shun by Kershaw:
Forged in the samurai sword-making center of Seki City, Japan, Shun features centuries-old craftsmanship updated for the modern Western kitchen.
I think you need to research a little better before you go about and post insane comments that are based upon pure speculation and lack of knowledge. Never ever disrespect the traditions nor values of the Japanese knife makers by posting such insane and profound comments. The only thing HAMMERED here is your head!
I have been very amused reading some of the comments here. I guess we have the traditional Japanese knife makers crying over in Japan with the idiotic comments made here. Shun knifes are Stamped?? LOL!
About Shun by Kershaw:
Forged in the samurai sword-making center of Seki City, Japan, Shun features centuries-old craftsmanship updated for the modern Western kitchen.
I think you need to research a little better before you go about and post insane comments that are based upon pure speculation and lack of knowledge. Never ever disrespect the traditions nor values of the Japanese knife makers by posting such insane and profound comments. The only thing Stamped here is your head!
Shun strikes me as good knives, but also as a pretty poor value. The first time I used one, it was the best knife I'd ever used. Then I was introduced to better Japanese knives that in some cases cost half the price of Shun's top line.
Shun is a brand made by Kai, a very large Japanese company. The Shun line appears to be designed for Western home cooks who are transitioning to Japanese knives. They are very heavy for Japanese knives, and are ground at the relatively blunt bevel angles of 16° per side (sharper than most Euro knives, but less so than the more high end brands). The bevel angle can be changed by a skilled sharpener, but the chunky weight can't. I recently bought a Hiromoto guyto for just over half the price of a comparable Shun Elite knife. In terms of sharpness, sharpenability, and edge retention, the Hiromoto spanks the Shun. It is also designed with a better blade shape, in my oppinion ... as are the Tojiros, Macs, Misonos, Blazens, Hattoris, etc.
Shun strikes me as good knives, but also as a pretty poor value. The first time I used one, it was the best knife I'd ever used. Then I was introduced to better Japanese knives that in some cases cost half the price of Shun's top line.
Shun is a brand made by Kai, a very large Japanese company. The Shun line appears to be designed for Western home cooks who are transitioning to Japanese knives. They are very heavy for Japanese knives, and are ground at the relatively blunt bevel angles of 16° per side (sharper than most Euro knives, but less so than the more high end brands). The bevel angle can be changed by a skilled sharpener, but the chunky weight can't. I recently bought a Hiromoto guyto for just over half the price of a comparable Shun Elite knife. In terms of sharpness, sharpenability, and edge retention, the Hiromoto spanks the Shun. It is also designed with a better blade shape, in my oppinion ... as are the Tojiros, Macs, Misonos, Blazens, Hattoris, etc.
I own the Wusthof Culinar line and they are said to be the best on the market today by many top chefīs and consumer sites. However I purchased a Shun Santoku knife from the Classic line and I must admit that the Shun out performs the Wusthof in all manners. I have not honed the Shun since I got it and that is over 3 weeks ago! I did a lot of looking around since I wanted a Japanese knife but I was sold on the Shun for itīs looks and feel and the performance of it came as a bonus. I still have to find a knife in this price category that out performs the Shun.
I'm not surprised the Shun works wonderfully for you and that it outperforms your Wusthof; it's an excellent knife. You can find better ones, though, for similar or less money.
Pretty much anything sold at www.korin.com or www.japanesechefsknife.com in a similar price range.
For real price/performance leaders, I'd recommend looking at Mac, Tojiro, and the Hiromoto A.S. knives. Korin has been pushing the Togihara knives as an alternative to Tojiro, but I have no experience with them.
Second, specifically in response to the numerous Cutco brochure cut&pastes in this thread, yes! You should use the right knife for the right job. The right knife for cooking is a chef's knife. Period. Only once you have mastered the chef's knife are you skilled enough to correctly apply other knives. Furthermore, only significantly different knives are even valid options. Maximum, a knife roll should contain:
Basic chef's knife
Flexible boning knife
Serrated knife (offset is best)
Paring knife (ONLY if engaging in fine detail work...not a home function)
Any set of knives fails to provide the user with personal input on choosing each tool based on its use, which is subjective.
Steak knives are not a valid example of quality. Like cutting boards, buy only good enough steak knives to meet your frequency of use and plan on throwing them away once they're worn out (2 yrs tops). I don't buy paper towels with a lifetime warranty either, and for the same reason.
I've just recently done a lot of research for a knife purchase and have become somewhat of a knife geek. After extensive research, I decided to buy MAC knives, the MTH-80 being one of them. I am amazed at the performance of this knife. Quite a pleasure to work with. I've also bought other knives from their professional series and am quite delighted with them.
Some people might consider expensive knives to be a luxury (I know I did, until I tried a high end knife), but I know they are definitely worth the INVESTMENT. They'll last you a lifetime (if you take good care of them) and they will work better during their lifetime, so in the end they don't really cost any more money.
As for the above posting, mentioning which knives are essential in a kitchen, I have to disagree. Obviously a good chef or santoku knife is a good start, but the rest depends on what you do in the kitchen. If you never debone anything, what use is a deboning knife?
Just my opinion.
There are LOTS of other things that matter as much as, or more, than how sharp a knife is. Edge retention, blade geometry, fit and finish, handle feel, blade weight balance, etc etc.
Silly and rather pointless experiment, unless you just wanted to know which of the commercial kitchen knives is the sharpest.
:angry: :angry: :unsure:
I also have an ancient set of unknown origin carbon steel knives. You have to sharpen more often with these, but they get scary sharp and function very well. I sometimes wonder what makes knives so interesting, it must have something to do with our survival instinct is all I can figure. We could use stone or glass knives and still get the jobs done that we do in the kitchen, but longer lasting edges, superior ergonomics, cool shapes, bevel tapers, fancy laser etching etc etc seems to capture a knife enthusiests eye, and he's hooked :)
I feel comfortable with my collection and feel I can tackle anything from butchering (got me a 8" wustof butcher knife heheheheh), to delicate paring.
Everyone has hit the nail on the head. You really only need a good chef's or gyotu, boning knife for chicken and fish (I like wustof's, but use the shun just cause its so scary sharp), and I use my 6 " utility knife more often than not, simply because sometimes in a big cooking project, you need to swap from meats to veggies, or you just dont have enough room for the big chefs knife. I admit that the rest are just toys. I just use steel rods to reshape the edge and if it needs more than that, they hit the stones.
Comfort, now this is something I do have an opinion on. I have huge hands, and find some knives really lacking in the handle dept, specially in the smaller utility knives. I actually have 2 favorites here, the hattori has the best handle out of all my knives, but I dont like the bolster as well as the shuns. Thats what keeps me going back to those knives, cause I tend to pinch the blade just in front of bolster for control, and nothing Ive used yet has topped the shun balance and fit, at the bolster. All of em hold an edge thats outstanding, and for me to measure how long the edges actually hold for usage would be insane.
I know this sorta goes against the grain, and this opinion is based on what I find most comfortable to use (the knife I allways grab outof the block).
The hattori KD gyotu 240mm (9.5inch)
Shun sontoku 7"
Shun Utility knife
Misono sontoku when the others out of action (Bolster is a bit clumsy for me, but this is a very nice knife)
Shun 6"Boning knife
Wustof 8" Butchers knife when Dinner doesnt come out as planned.. or the critics need coaxing.
In other words, Try em before you buy em and remember, everybodys got an opinion. In my book, you couldnt go wrong with any of knives talked about here 'cept perhaps Cutco.
My question for all here is, has anyone ever tried the Scary Sharp (TM) ;-P System for sharpening knives?
The Henckels Pro-S set I got for my wedding just now sits in the knife block and collects dust.
-ikiru
*enjoy the sauce*
Thank You.[/size:f74602db50][/color:f74602db50]
If a knife performs terrible, no warranty in the world is gonna make it better. There are so many knives that flat out beat the Cutco in performance and price that the only explanation to their success is the nature of their marketing.
A wise consumer goes online to compares prices and reviews. Hopefully they will find a website like this where an objective review has been written. Or better yet, go to forum where they can ask questions (here, knifeforums, bladeforums, eGullet).
adding insult is the above disparaging about the competition.
in my opinion, such messages should be deleted outright.
yes, it's what i've been using for a little while. my impression is that it works exactly as well as comparable stones, but no better. the advantage is that it's cheaper to start with, and you can easily try many different grits to figure out what works for you.
the disadvantage is that it's more expensive in the long run, and a bit of a nuissance. the paper wears out quickly, and cutting it and sticking it flat and changing it is a pain.
i think i'll keep using it until i run out of sandpaper, and then get a medium quality set of stones.
two products that i love are the leather strop (with abrasive compound) and the glass-smooth steel sold by handamerican.com. they work really well for keeping a knife razor sharp. i go a long, long time between real sharpening sessions by using these.
The best product I've found for sharpening Cutco knives is a bench grinder that spins at several thousand RPMs, loaded with a very coarse carbide wheel. It makes lots of cool sparks, and when you're done, the knives don't take up as much room in the recycling bin.
Sharpening on waterstones takes me a third of the time it would take me to sharpen on a scary-sharp system, and the results are usually better.
I sometimes use it to get a nice even looking edge, but I still finish on my King 1k/6k.
I still haven't decided on one or the other, but I'm not sure I'm a fan of the whole rocking motion you have to go through w/ chef knives...
About sharpness, even under tests where all knives are sharpened together to be fair, nothing has beat my Global or ceramic knife. Not american, german or otherwise.
But Good Luck to all of you
BTW, great comments everyone, very informative!
Thanks all.
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=26036
Personally, I like to sharpen my kitchen knives on Japanese waterstones. With a little practice you will produce an edge that far surpass anything done in a factory.
I don't like most of the sharpening systems out there, most of them will ruin your knife.
The dimples reduce the surface area of the blade that touches the food being cut - in theory reducing drag and the potential for food (like potatoes or cucumbers) to stick to the side of the knife. I have not come up with a reasonable test to prove this works - just some anecdotal evidence that it reduces the amount of food that sticks, but doesn't solve the problem.
Get a knife with good balance and feel.
I have been using Henkels for >15 years now and they havent failed me , lost my Chef knife a few years back and bought a cusinart chef replacement at Marshalls for $15.00. my trusty 7-8 inch henkels with the full tang & wooden handle has been used the most for basic cutting and dicing, butchering deboning tchrough cartillage and ligaments, most fine work is done with this knife.
Actually any knife will work well if it feels good in your hand. The trick is learning when and how to sharpen them. Get a good heavy water stone that doesnt crumble with both rough and fine grit per side, and learn how to sharpen at the right angle depending on your use.
I recently treated myself to a Kershaw damascus 8 utility and I love it. Works flawlessly, but still use my henkels utility when im alone. The Kershaw is too pretty and expensive to use for all around work - (to debone a leg of lamb or pork shoulder). I should start using it more often. my wife suggests that I frame and display the knife by the way I swoon over it.
I feel sorry for my Sister and friends who purchased these Cutco knives from a family member who just started out in Cutco sales,(he made a killing) They have good bread knives that work though. And the chef knives could be used in the garden too. They have a lifetime warranty.
Unbalanced and blade heavy, way overpriced.
I had suggested selling them on ebay. But she keeps it as a status symbol friends who dont even know how to slice and dice. She does say it works fine for her. Get a knife with soul Id tell her.
I just wanted to comment that not all knives are created the same. Someone claimed that any knife can achieve the same edge when sharpened and that it is pointless to pay a lot for a knife. This is not true. I have a very cheap Wusthof (I think it's Grand Prix) which I've sharpened to a very sharp edge, but it loses it quickly, sometimes midway through a shift at work! The ultimate indicator - cutting through a sushi roll topped with ripe avocado slices and wrapped in plastic wrap. A somewhat dull knife will mush the avocado and resist cutting the wrap, whereas a sharp knife will slide right through.
I also want to share another way to test the sharpness of a blade - try sliding the edge along a fingernail (I usually use my thumb nail) or a cutting board. If it's sharp, it should get stuck. A dull knife will simply slide across the surface. This is a nice method because you can quickly check each section of your blade for dull spots, which might be difficult using the razor method.
But, because I do demos all the time, I can tell you that I have NEVER had the slightest problem in cutting anything with any of my knives. I was very surprised at the total negative reviews that the french chef knife got.
True, my favorite knife (the trimmer) does have the DD edge (which ISN'T serrated, believe it or not). But, I use the French Chef all the time, and have never had the slightest of problem. Looks like something weird happened in your test.
I've heard that there are some Brazilian brands in the market such as Tramontina and Mundial brands. It seems that those Brazilian forged knives are quite good and they have good prices.
Do you have any comment about them? Have you ever tested them?
Thank you.
I've recently purchased my first set of knives from here: Chefs Knives
I grabbed a selection of their Global Knives after reading up on them on the 'net. I love them but I may look into some of the other recommendations here.
I need to grab some kind of sharpening tool though. Can anyone recommend one? Is it best to go with a steel or whetstone??
Thanks!
I finally read this review again for the 10th time and just ordered a Mac Chefs knife off of Amazon. Came in three days and is wonderful. Never had a knife of any kind this sharp except a razor blade. And it was sharp out of the box. Could it get sharper? I don't know, I am not going to touch the blade with a stone, only a professional when it needs it.
Did a little test myself with a Global, Wusthof and the Mac. Laid them out and let several people cut carrots and tomato. Some liked the Wusthof and some liked the Global, but ALL said WOW! when using the Mac. Unscientific consensus between all my friends is that the Mac was hands down the best. One friend has one of those big blocks with the complete Wusthoff set and seemed a little sad that the Mac clearly was better.
Thanks,
Kirk
Thanks :-)
Yes, it could get sharper than the factory edge, but it takes a combination of good tools, skilled hands, and knowledge. If you get them sharpened by someone else, make sure they aren't using high speed grinding wheels and belt sanders. If you see sparks, than there is too much heat and the edge could lose it's hardness.
The best sharpeners don't rely heavily on their electric powered tools, and do most of the sharpening by hand on waterstones.
I invite you all to take a visit at the website below:
http://www.mundial-usa.com/gourmet.html
They are Brazilian made forged knives. Good quality with low prices.
Hugs.
I would love to have that Olivier Anquier set. I really like them.
I am a newcomer to cooking and I'm looking for a good chef's knife. Cooking for me will be a hobby as opposed to a profession. After reading the comparison of chef's knives I feel more informed than before but I am left with one question.
What about 10 inch chef's knives? The comparison mentioned mainly 8 inch knives. What are the differences? What considerations are important? Is it strictly a matter of comfort or are there other factors?
Thanks
Hector
I have a 10 and 8 and 6 inch chefs. the 8 gets the heaviest workout but the 10 is very useful for larger / more forceful / even two handed tasks.
that said, if you are very tall with long arms and a real good swing arc for rocking, a ten incher might be more suited to your "cutting geometry"
conversely if you are not tall, with shorter arms, the 8 inch may be more comfortable/natural to use.
either would be a good choice - but the best advice is to go get the brand specific knives in hand - they must "feel right" in your hand - that's a matter of knife handle design plus your hand size/grip/etc.
if it doesn't feel right when you pick it up and handle it, odds are you will not be long term happy with that knife.